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I ran across this commentary the other day and thought it was pertinent to share as a piece pertaining to the 2008 election since this is a topic that always garners discussion. I’ve heard Dave speak previously about the fact that simply because of Obama’s views on fiscal policy, there just isn’t a way he could vote for him, not that he’s a fan of McCain either.
The article below is lengthy so to save you eyes, you can listen to the entire statement in audio form here:
(Click Play to Listen)
Here is the entire article from Dave Ramsey should you want to read it:
Butt Scratching and Bass Fishing
by Dave RamseyA couple of weeks ago, I worked late like I sometimes need to do to run my business. It was a nice Tennessee summer evening, and I was enjoying the drive home. About 7:30, as I pulled to a stop light a few blocks from my office, I noticed a light on in the corner office of a friend’s office building. Through the twilight I could make out my friend’s silhouette as he bent over his desk. Being a fellow entrepreneur, I knew what he was doing.
He was pouring over some receivables. Some turkey hadn’t paid him, and he was trying to make his accounts balance so he would have the cash to make it another day. In that instant, I had a flashback to some of the ridiculous statements I’ve been hearing on the talking-head news channels and from some individuals during this political year. And I’ll be honest—I instantly felt the heat of anger flow through my body.
Let me tell you why. You see, my friend who I saw working late—we’ll call him Henry—is a great guy. He’s what you want your son to grow up to be. He loves God, his country, his wife, and his kids. He didn’t have the academic advantage of attending a big-name university. Instead, he started installing heating and air systems as a grunt laborer after he graduated from high school. He was and is a very hard and diligent worker, and before long, the boss taught him the trade. But when he was 24, after 6 years of service, the company he was working for got into financial trouble and laid him off.
Henry still had his tools, so he bought an old pickup to haul around his materials and tools, and suddenly he was in business. He knew about heating and air-conditioning, but not about business, so he made a lot of mistakes.
He persisted. He took accounting and management at the community college to learn about business. He started reading books on business, HVAC, marriage, kids, God, and anything else someone he respected recommended. Today he is one of the best-read men I know. Soon, because of his fabulous service and fair prices, he developed a great reputation, and his little business began to grow. Henry started 15 years ago, and now he has 17 employees whose families are fed because he does a great job. He is in church on Sunday and seldom misses his kids’ Little League games. Sometimes he has to miss a game because some poor soul has their AC go out in the 96-degree Tennessee summer heat, but Henry makes sure they are served. He is, by all standards, a good man. He is, by all standards, what makes America great.
Henry and I are friends, and so he asked me some financial questions last year. I learned in the process that his personal taxable income last year was $328,000. I smiled with pride for this 70-hour a week guy because he is living the dream.
At the stop light that evening, I also thought of another guy I know—and that is where the anger flash came from. We will call him John. While John does not have the same drive Henry has, I can say that he, too, is a good man.
John also graduated from high school and did not attend a big-name university. He went to work at a local factory 15 years ago. When 5:00pm comes around, John has probably already made it to his car in the parking lot. He comes in 5 minutes late, takes frequent breaks, and leaves 5 minutes early. However, to his credit, he is steady and works hard.
Over the years, due to his steadiness and seniority, he has worked his way up to about $75,000 per year in that same factory. He seldom misses his kid’s ballgames, but most nights you will find him in front of the TV where he has become an expert on “American Idol,†“The Biggest Loser,†and who got thrown off the island. When he is not in front of the TV, he spends a LOT of time and money bass fishing on our local lake. He never works over 40 hours a week and hasn’t read a non-fiction book since high school.
This is America, and there is nothing wrong with either set of choices. Nothing wrong, that is, until the politicians and socialists get involved.I have seen several elitist people on the talking-head channels make the statement lately that people making over $250,000 per year have a “moral imperative†to pay more in taxes to take care of the country’s problems. This is not only infuriating—it is economically, spiritually, and morally crazy! Where in the world do these twits get off saying that Henry should be punished for his diligence? If you are John, where do you get off trying to take Henry’s hard-earned money away from him in the name of
your misguided “fairnessâ€? If you want to sit on the lake, drink beer, scratch your butt, and bass fish, that is perfectly fine with me. I am not against any of those activities and have engaged in some of them myself at one time or another. But you HAVE NO RIGHT to talk about “moral imperatives†about what other people have earned due to their diligence. That money is not yours! You want some money? Go earn some! Get up, leave the cave, kill something, and drag it home.We are in a dangerous place in our country today. A segment of our population has decided that it is the government’s job to provide all of their protection, provision, and prosperity. This segment has figured out that government doesn’t have the money to give them everything they want, so somebody else has to pay for it. That is how the “politics of envy†was born. “Tax the rich†has become the mantra of the left, and this political season it has been falsely dubbed a “moral imperative.â€
Ninety percent of America’s millionaires are first-generation rich. They are Henry. To tax them because you think it is a “moral imperative†is legalizing governmental theft from our brightest, most charitable, and most productive citizens.
If I can get a law passed that says you must surrender all your cars to the government because it is the “moral imperative†of anyone who owns cars to support the latest governmental program, that would be a violation of private property rights and simply morally wrong. This new “moral imperative†to redistribute wealth is no different from that. It’s the SAME THING!
Please, America, re-think the politics of envy! You are sowing the seeds of our destruction when you punish the Henrys of our culture.
If you think taxing the populace to support government programs is the best way—and I don’t—then at least tax every single person the same! There are very few Henrys out here who would squawk much about paying a set percentage of their income—if everyone else did, too. But this idea of some buttscratching bass fisherman saying government should tax his neighbor and not him—just because his neighbor has succeeded—must stop.
So the next time an elitist media talking-head starts telling you it is the moral imperative of our culture to tax my friend Henry, change the channel.
The next time you see someone wealthy who feels guilty and is preaching the politics of envy, change the channel.
The next time you see some celebrity who feels guilt over their income preaching socialism, change the channel.
And the next time you run into a misguided, butt-scratching bass fisherman who says the evil rich people in our culture should have their private property confiscated because that is fair… well just shake your head walk away—and make sure to vote against his candidate.
If he and his type win, God help America.
© The Lampo Group, Inc. all rights reserved.
I felt that this was a prime critique of the political rhetoric we’ve been hearing this entire election season. Politicians act like people become wealthy by some immoral act other than working hard and making money. How can we as voters allow someone to be so reckless with our money?
Why is it OK to confiscate money and not other material things? Would it be right for the government to force someone with a large 28,000 square foot John Edwards size house to open portions of his home to people who own smaller homes out of fairness? Should families with 3 cars be forced to give one up for families who have 1 car, out of fairness? If not, then why is it OK for the government to take money out of your wallet in the same fashion?
If you’re not familiar with Dave Ramsey, you need to check him out here.
(24 votes, average: 4.08 out of 5)
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Bravo!! Ramsey said it better than anyone I’ve heard so far!
I like that he refers to this as “politics of envy”. I’ve always called it the Robin Hood Syndrome. This issue alone is enough for one to choose their candidate definitively. And if this were the ONLY issue, you would really see a divided country - the givers and the takers.
This also speaks beautifully to the issue of “educated” voters vs. “uneducated voters”, does it not?
So this article sort of criticizes our system of taxing people differently by their larger incomes. Dave mildly suggests a flat tax on all Americans, although he doesn’t talk much about it. Is that something you really think would work?
Ideally I’d be happier abolishing property and income taxes and leveling a large sales tax like Huckabee proposed. I just think that in practice if sales taxes were steep the black market would become uncontrollable, and many people would find a way to buy their most expensive items tax-free. People spend so much time and energy trying to dodge taxes and find loopholes as it is, I can only imagine the lengths some would go to to dodge a hefty sales tax.
At any rate I agree that we could do better so far as tax systems go, I just haven’t heard an alternative system proposed that I think is viable. And like it or not, I doubt the poor will ever be paying the same taxes as the rich.
Great article CG! This article really spoke to me because I’ve been both those guys. The thing that many people do not understand is that most wealth is not given, it is earned, sometimes at great personal risk. If you reduce the reward, you reduce the amount of people willing to take the risk. Right now we need people to take risks. We need people to invent new technologies, new types of energy, etc. Now is not the time to drag down American ingenuity.
Indy:
I believe that the author was referring to the progressive tax being unfair. I don’t think he advocated a flat tax, but rather a fair tax.
Although I don’t listen/watch dave ramsey ever, I do know greatly of him through my father as he’s always spewing positive things about the guy.
I do however disagree with his viewpoints and his ideologies for two reasons.
First, and maybe it’s due in part to my small town mentality, I’ve never heard somebody making 75K$ complain about what dave speaks of. I’d agree more with the article if he replaced john with say johnny who doesnt have a job, has 10 kids and continues to have kids while not looking for employment and lives off welfare. Again, it’s not John who is making money that is trying to “steal” anything, it’s those lower on the totem pole than John. Welfare. Now that is something to get angered about!
Second, the term “The rich get richer and the poorer get poorer” wasn’t thought up by somebody who was living in a prosperous time. It was a matter of fact, and as such, the top 10% of Americans wealth wise are more wealthier than the rest of the 90% population.
I will admit that our system is incredibly inefficient and borderline unfair and one cure for this would be to implment the fair tax. Until then, everything will be broken, and the “rich” should be taxed more. Why? Because the gap between more and enough never closes and at what point does it turn to greed?
Think thats unfair? Two words for you.
Paris Hilton.
It has been clear throughout history that some redistribution of wealth is neccessary to allow the ruling class to remain in power. Welfare is a good example of small measures aimed at keeping the poor quiet. This is much the same way in which Romans used circuses to amuse the poor masses. The United States is now bordering on an oligarchy. This is evidenced by the fact that the top 1% of the population (in monetary terms) control about 80% of the world’s wealth. These top 1% don’t keep that 80% share by engaging in free market activities, they make deals amongst themselves (and often intermarry, coincidentally) to slant the socioeconomic system in their favor.
There are only two real types of power, money and masses. The rich have the money, but do not have mass numbers of people. The poor posess the physical numbers. Mass numbers are more powerful than money, unless those with money find some way to control the attitude of the poor. The monetary elite in have found that offering the poor a small handout, which allows them to just get by, they can render the masses apathetic and unwilling to fight for economic reform. The middle class have been exploited to an even higher degree, given a small piece of the pie for themselves, and constantly wanting more. The vast majority of the middle class is so focused on this insatiable goal that they essentially allow themselves to become indentured servants of the monetary elite. The elite reap most of the profits from the products of the toil and talent of their servants, giving them only a very small slice of the pie for themselves.
Of course, the great thing about America is that, once-in-a-while, someone might make it past the safeguards of the elite. Take Bill Gates, for instance. Now think about what might have happened to him if, say, he were an indentured servant of IBM or Xerox at the time he came up with windows (or stole it, if that’s what you believe). He would have likely given the idea to his employer in the hopes of moving up the career ladder, and he would have. IBM or Xerox would have likely given him a promotion with a corner office and a 100k per year salary, but the top dogs at IBM (and the investors, which are most often the same top dogs) would have collected the billions in profits that Microsoft went on to earn. I’d be willing to bet that there have been a hundred people like this at IBM, and at Microsoft, as well.
Hmm, this article talks in terms of heart-tugging anecdotes and vague abstractions, but let’s put some hard numbers here. First, let’s look at the actual changes in percentages behind McCain and Obama’s tax plans (via the non-partisan Tax Policy Center):
http://taxprof.typepad.co.....pc_1_2.jpg
(The entire report is here:)
http://www.taxpolicycente.....?ID=411693
…and here’s CNN report for those who prefer video and actual income numbers rather than “quintiles”:
http://www.youtube.com/wa.....fbxpMw4mco
In other words, 80% of Americans get a larger tax cut under Obama’s plan. 20% get a larger tax cut under McCain’s. I wonder, then, when only the richest 20% benefit, what about McCain’s plan is “fair”?
Second, it seems a little disingenuous to equivocate the cases of “Henry” and “John” as just your average Joes that equally represent America. For starters, check out this website:
http://www.lcurve.org/
The median income *per person* in America is around $26,000 (per household, it’s $48,000). In other words, 50% make more, 50% make less than that. That puts modest Henry at earning around the 87th percentile (i.e. 7/8 of Americans make less). Even at this high level of earning, though, Obama’s plan would still benefit John.
So it’s no coincidence that Ramsey lists Henry’s income at the $328K level, as that’s just about the cutoff for the top 1% of income earners. It’s only when you construct this straw-man argument at this income extreme that McCain’s tax plan looks fairer.
Third, what does each plan do for the economy as a whole? Unfortunately, both plans increase the national debt. However, I quote the Tax Policy Center’s analysis, again:
“Senator Obama’s plan would add $3.3 trillion to the national debt (including additional interest costs) while Senator McCain’s plan would add $4.3 trillion.”
So, we’re a trillion dollars more in debt with McCain’s “fair” plan.
As a young man in the transition process from poor to less poor I can honestly say I think taxing the rich is ridiculous. Anyone who doesn’t have enough in this wonderful country can get more, I’m proof of that. Eight months ago I would have screamed TAX THE RICH but now that I’ve had my wake up call (thanks in part to Mr. Ramsey) I realize how foolish that is, and it’s root is in jealousy.
Even as a poor guy I’ve always done my best to help those around me and now I realize that the better I am with my money and the more I grow my wealth, the more I’ll be able to give and use for others. I don’t trust Big Government to put that money to the same use I would. I can handle the redistribution of my wealth, thanks anyway Big G.
So, here’s to everyone learning how to take care of their own and not relying on Big Government to powder their hineys every time they have an accident. Socialism is gay.
*ROFL* I don’t know who you are, Scott, but I like you! Don’t ever lose that attitude, you’ll do great!
‘Socialism is gay’ hmmmm ‘gay socialism’ now there’s a thought provoking statement.
Great article!
Josh,
I see your point and I can’t argue with history. I can say that its our own fault. I doubt anyone in the top 1% or even the top 10% bothers to post on here. Trace a rich guy’s geneology and eventually you’ll find normal/poor ancestors. Someone had to take the risk to reap the reward. If the risk is big enough, then you can reap rewards for generations. Sure the rich try to keep their money, but it should be their choice. Our pledge doesn’t say “….with liberty and justice for some.” As far as the other 90% are concerned, no one is stopping you from building your own empire….until you get there and have to pay unfair taxes on your diligence. You can work hard, like some of us non silver spoon types and either take on a lot of debt to go to a great school, or start a business from the ground up and risk it failing a ruining you. Or there is always the option of working your way up the corporate ladder until you can own some of that big company. Either way, no one is stopping you. Just because a person chooses to be passive and not to strive doesn’t mean that they can’t. With this option being available, taxes should be the same across the board.
Oh, and I agree, socialism is gay.
How can Dave Ramsey make such a one-sided argument? About taxes? Income taxes didn’t even exist until the last century.
What Dave didn’t touch on is that factory that his butt-scratching buddy works for has spent years reducing the amount of company profit spent providing for his wages, benefits, retirement, etc, and drastically increasing the amount of profit the factory makes to pay to very rich executive salary packages. Today, effectively, the buying power of the everday person is way less than it was 50 years ago, not just because of the value of the dollar, but because of how companies have reallocated where the profit goes; it’s no longer shared fairly anymore. This is not an arugment that needs further explaining; anyone who reads the newspaper knows this.
So, the goverment says that people who make most of the wealth should pay more taxes, why? Because in today’s economy, they have many more breaks. Taxing rich people - people like highly compensated executives - and people like Dave, is a way to make sure that people who benefit most from an economy that is biased to the wealthy pay their fair share in our society; hence the terminology the “moral imperative.”
“Don’t take my money because I worked harder to earn it than the little guy?” How could someone who is a Christian make such a selfish argument as Dave Ramsey? People like Dave Ramsey ONLY make money because of the little guy.
Diego, you state that “People like Dave Ramsey ONLY make money because of the little guy”.
So you’re telling me that if someone works hard, earns a college degree, and then lands a great job, that they have done that on the back of someone else? I’m sorry buddy, but you’re missing the point here. I’ve heard Dave’s story, he built his company from the ground up providing a needed service. He started out dead broke and worked his way back from bankruptcy to where he is today. Dave was a “little guy” until he turned his life around and found his calling. He wasn’t born wealthy, he is self-made though hard work and sacrifice.
Answer me this question, why is it OK for money to be taken from people who work incredibly hard for their income and be given to someone who doesn’t work nearly as hard?
Plus, you’re missing the fact that Dave Ramsey donates huge amounts of money to charities and provides many services to people who cannot afford it. Every day or so I listen to his radio show for free simply for the financial advice. He has donated more money to the less fortunate in the past 5 years than I’m betting you’ll ever be able to in a life time. So don’t tell me he’s riding success on the back of someone else.
I simply pray that I can be as generous as him if I become as wealthy someday.
The more you earn, the more you can help others, it’s that simple. If we discourage people from becoming wealthy, who will the government suck money from?
Too bad that not all wealthy people are like Henry! You see this story makes you feel all warm and fuzzy. It makes you feel like all wealthy people are self made model citizens and that anyone making $75000 or less is a “but scratching” lazy ass. Hmmmm…This just isn’t so. Further, there are a lot of people that boast big salaries at the advantage and deception of others. Take for instance the realtor that I know that brags about ripping senior citizens off by selling them land contracts or the mortgage banker who had made millions selling risky loans! I appreciate the antidote; however, the picture you painted is flawed!
My intent here, is to critique Ramsey, and no one else. Dave Ramsey’s comments is a typical “pull themselves up by their bootstraps” argument. You pull up a few key examples, or mention a friend, and cite them as an example of the American dream come true.
It is also, unfortunately, a very racist argument to make– one which you ordinarily see made by people who are privileged. Whites and wealthy are always juggling with their guilt about being privileged– especially liberals, and this is a wonderful way of whitewashing it.
For every “Henry” I can show you thousands who worked damn hard and get no where in our society. And it does not have to do ‘not working hard enough’ or plain ‘luck’ but specific opportunities offered by location and identity.
It’s unfortunate that most people in our country do not understand the basic workings of socialism, or that our country’s system is partly socialist (and that you can have democratic socialisms). I am not calling for a market-based revolution, or severe reworkings of our government. I am simply critiquing this way of portraying our system as is.
Michael,
1. It’s not racist in any way, shape, or form. Any person of any background can work hard and make something of themselves. People of all backgrounds make choices, some good, some bad.
2. Dave Ramsey is hardly your typical “privileged” white person, you obviously don’t know his story or know anything about him. He was not born into wealth at all, he built a business from the ground up and did so by helping others. He, of anyone, has the right to push this argument since he lived it coming back from being completely destitute and in bankruptcy. So please, don’t tell me Dave Ramsey is some kind of elitist “privileged” person, he worked for everything he has now.
3. Nothing stops anyone from getting their college degree and making something of themselves. My wife and I have student loans which will take us years to pay back, we did it ourselves with no financial help from family or the government. It’s total nonsense to say that people can’t improve their lives. Most of the time people hold themselves back because their too lazy to do anything. It’s not my fault someone else won’t go to college or save for the future. Don’t blame me for my success when someone else won’t get off their lazy chair and earn money, I’m not holding them back.
4. I can show you people who work “damn hard” and get nowhere because they piss away the money they have. I know family members making $80k a year who are always broke because they blow money. I know that people afford what they want to afford. Somehow I watch people complain about gas prices but always afford cigarettes and beer. I watch people complain about not having money yet when they get paid they spend it on useless crap instead of needs and savings. I watch people complain about money yet continue to pay a cell phone bill along with other unnecessary expenses.
The bottom line is this, it is not about how much money you make, it’s about whether or not you make wise decisions with the money you have. That could be $20k a year or $200k a year, it doesn’t matter. Bless the people who do succeed and make $200k a year, they are the living testament to what America can provide.
You’re right, it doesn’t have to do with not working hard enough, it has to do with being financially competent to manage your checkbook and not spend money on worthless crap.
You act as though people not born into “privileged” families should all be living in cardboard boxes. So tell me why I shouldn’t believe the millions of inspirational stories in our country about people going from rags to riches?
It happens everyday because people make the right choices in life, not because of their skin color or their family background.
Here, here, Nate! I can’t even think of anything to add, gosh, you must have REALLY done a good job for that!
Michael, why in the world would you want to bring race or the very hackneyed “racist” label into this? Is it now racist to work??? “Whites and wealthy”??? I’m really surprised at you, Michael. Why didn’t you just say we cling to our money.
Not everyone IS created equal, some are better looking than others, some are smarter than others, some are more priviledged than others and some are born in a country that provides freedom and opportunity that often is taken for granted. Yeah it’s oh so easy to say anyone can make something of themselves if they really want to, but that simply isn’t true and that’s just something people say so they can feel good about themselves.
No one should knock success, but when success starts becoming greed and poor people start are becoming poorer, sick people are becoming sicker, then something really is wrong with society.
Socialism may be gay but it tries to look out for the little guy when the big guy is giving them a good shafting.
Yeah well the “big guy” didn’t have “big” just handed to him. This is a capitalist country and no one should feel guilt over there success! Your bank account is as big as you make it, its that easy. If 9 to 5 fits you well and your comfortable in your career then good for you. But for those of us who strive for more and are always looking for a way to make more money, then good for us. Either way its up to you, you may have have been born poor, but you certainly can decide your financial fate. It really comes down to if you have faith in yourself and are willing to roll the dice.
There wouldn’t be any ‘big guys’ if there wasn’t any ‘little guys’. Not everybody has equal opportunities, it would be nice if they had but they simply don’t.
If every working person in America decided to ‘roll the dice’ and make some serious money, then you’d have no public services and the infrastucture of America would fall to bits. You always need a little guy to do the crappy jobs the ‘big guy’ is making money from.
I suppose according to Ramsey’s logic people that are poor choose to be because they are lazy, prefer to live in section 8 housing, and such and the rich have nothing to do with it-no obligation to help the less fortunate & no need to feel anything but disdain for the foolish poor. Nor should our government provide any programs to help the poor as that’s just evil socialism as Americans are imperialists and could care less about who we oppress (locally, nationally, or internationally) as long as we can drive our big fancy cars, live in the ‘burbs, and feel self righteous about our (so-called) financial freedom.
Ramsey is just another Christian Republican blinded by money. What was it Christ said about Rich Men & the Eye of a Needle? More importantly if Christ really was at the center than let me you ask you this: If Christ was alive today, where do you think he’d hang out in your town/ city? Who would he be with? If you’re a so called “christian” (follower of Christ) where are these people in your life?
Dave Ramsey, a white male, received his bachelor’s of science degree at the age of 22 from the University of Tennessee (1982). He double majored in Finance and Real Estate. In 1982, Ramsey was already more privileged than 80% of the population by holding a college degree. His early mistakes after college were soon eclipsed by economic successes. He is extremely privileged Nate, you are just not comparing his status with the actual destitute in this country and the criteria (lack of privilege) that perpetuates their poverty.
If you examine the U.S Census for racial economic categories in the 1980s, you will find an enormous disparity in wealth between Whites and other races. Even today, you still see this (the last U.S Census shows that African Americans were the only racial group to not collectively improve).
I am not reading race “into” something. One does not have to say “Black,” or “White” in order for it to be racist, to blindly ignore racial inequalities. Babs, one of the basic premises of capitalism is that everyone is at an equal footing to succeed– and that success follows hard work. Racism is undoes this, since people did not start out on “equal” footing in this country– historically, and generationally. You are not treated the same in this country if you are African American, you are not offered the same opportunities, and thus it is harder to succeed.
Nate, the fact that you and your wife have college loans does not in any way show that “everyone” can get a college degree. You are entering this comparison 2/3 of the way through the race. Look at the fundamental skills offered to children K-12, and you will find very different styles of education demographically. The reason we have Americorps is because of these horrendous conditions and disparities.
People have to GET INTO college before they can even apply for loans. And even then, how did you start this process? You had counselors, peers, friends, and teachers who were all discussing college, the avenues to go for loans, what a FASA was, etc. Many disadvantage teens do not have this environment.
Yes, I would challenge you Nate– show me the “millions” who did this– going from poverty to success in this country, and while you’re at it, show me the racial stats to go along with it. The U.S Census for the last 40 years is against your statement.
I am not debating with you about the issue of managing money. That is an entirely different issue. But you need to have money to know how to manage it, you need education to have the skills to manage it, and certainly a decent environment to allow you a few mistakes as you learn (or privileged peers or helpers to assist you) helps.
“Babs, one of the basic premises of capitalism is that everyone is at an equal footing to succeed– and that success follows hard work. Racism is undoes this, since people did not start out on “equal†footing in this country– historically, and generationally. You are not treated the same in this country if you are African American, you are not offered the same opportunities, and thus it is harder to succeed.”
Michael, you’re not offered the same opportunities if you’re a woman, but that hasn’t stopped us, and it doesn’t make it racist. I will agree with Obama on one point, being black is no excuse for not making something of yourself - at any level. Being a woman, I’m entitled to get angry at your sentiment. African American men could vote 60 years before I could, and they could beat their wives and be protected by law as well. I think African Americans as a whole have thrown away more opportunities than I will ever have. There’s NO excuse for African Americans to not succeed any more than there is any excuse for anyone else. Everyone in this country can succeed on some level. African Americans are afforded MORE opportunities than any other sector of this country by virtue of Affirmative Action. That’s what it was designed for, and it was used to exhaustion. The fact that the census hasn’t improved for African Americans since the 80’s is of their own doing. You can lead a horse to water…………
Babs, I am afraid it is incredibly short-sighted to blame an entire group of people for the systemic inequalities they endure in our society.
I am in no way stating that skin color is the only means by which inequalities exist. Gender and Race are two of the largest and most pervasive forms of discrimination in our country (and throughout the world). If anything, your sympathy and ire should directed at the African American women, who historically were forced to give their allegiance to either women’s rights or African American rights. In fact, U.S Women’s Rights began with African American women (Sojourner Truth, etc.).
In fact, the reason that you as a woman are enjoying the modicum of legal protection from discrimination in this country today, is because the 1965 U.S Civil Rights Act regarding the outlawing of discrimination against people of color, had an added portion for women in the legislation.
Women have been stopped Babs, based upon the fact that they are women. Their is an incredible amount of gender discrimination in this country (note, the national wage for women is dropping). Yes, it is getting better for women, and arguably for African Americans, but there is still discrimination. But discrimination is never equally dolled out. One does not suffer the same if they are a woman or a mentally challenged individual.
I recommend checking out a short report by a woman on white privilege:
http://www.lilithgallery......ilege.html
She asks some very simple statements the expose white privilege in this country, such as:
# 1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.
# 2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.
# 3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.
# 4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.
# 5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.
# 6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.
# 7. When I am told about our national heritage or about “civilization,” I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.
# 8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.
# 9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.
# 10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.
Incidentally, one this site there is a similar list of Male Privilege, such as:
# 2. I can be confident that my co-workers won’t think I got my job because of my sex - even though that might be true.
# 3. If I am never promoted, it’s not because of my sex.
# 4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won’t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex’s capabilities.
# 5. The odds of my encountering sexual harassment on the job are so low as to be negligible.
# 6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.
# 7. If I’m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are so low as to be negligible.
# 8. I am not taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces.
# 9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.
# 10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.
C.G.
What do you think of Bob Barr?
If you think he is a stand up guy would you care to write an extensive article on him here?
Thanks!
Michael,
The subject of Tax reform and racial inequality are different subjects that get intertwined by both conservatives and liberals in support of their viewpoints. I believe we must take them as they are which is separate. I do acknowledge the indirect correlation or influence each has on the other but you can solve one without even touching the other.
The way I see it the tax system in our country was flawed from the start. We like to be “morally right” in this country however what we do not see is that morals are a relative thing and individual to most. What is wrong to me is Ok to you. With that being the case we must refrain from hitting the moral notes when applying government policy, we avoid it in religion, government contracts and all sorts of other programs- why not in taxes ?. I say this knowing that I am guilty of doing it myself (the why can’t they see I’m right syndrome) but I really believe the government should apply everything equally. The tax system is simply just not fair and it is not moral in anyone’s eyes to be unfair.
When the government sets up a system which is based in degrees it inherently evolves into abuse.
In this unconstitutional system (until the government said it wasn’t) the government raises money through several brackets. The probable tax brackets for 2008 are 0%, 10%, 15%, 25%, 28%, 33% and 35%. The system is unfair on it’s face because it separates based on social status but more importantly it begs politicians to pump it for votes. Currently the candidates are arguing over who should pay more. Democrats want to convince the working man that they are for them so they want to raise the % on the rich and adjust it down on the middle class. Now in theory that sounds good but remember taxation is a government action, and the government cannot discriminate right ? Then how is it that they believe that without convicting me of a crime they can impose a higher or unequal burden. For that matter if Republican’s kept it the same way we would still have 7 different tax rates applied on supposedly equal people. Think about it this way under the proposed 2008 system (Bush’s) 7 different people will pay $0, $10, $15,$ 25,$ 28, $33 and $35 on the same $100’s they make. The burden gets higher and higher the richer you get. Now I ain’t nowhere near rich but this is just simply not fair. For this system to get anywhere near fair we should all pay the same rate, since income is income right. For the sake of argument I’ll pick 22%. That same group would then pay $22 for every $ 100 they make, all deductions would be eliminated, singles and married would pay the same %. Those below the poverty level adjusted for inflation would be exempt from taxes. Those above would pay the same .22 cents on every dollar they made. If I made $ 75,000 I would owe $ 16,500 in taxes. If I made $ 1million I would pay $220,000 in taxes. The rich would still pay more but we would all be paying the same %. This way the politicians would not be able to buy our votes based on the tax debate. The poorer among us would still pay less and when the government tried to raise taxes it would affect all of us the same.
Now racial discrimination laws would still be enforced of course and when an African American made it they would join the whites in the same tax rate. If they struggle they don’t pay anything, just like the poor white folks. This is another simple problem, if we would stop trying to give breaks to people and treat them all the same it wouldn’t even be an issue
I’m fairly certain that those who attack socialist ideals are believers in capitalism. There can’t be any question about that. Why else would they be so offended by the thought of socialism. You all just could never understand that there are a growing number of people who are not comfortable with where capitalism is taking our culture. Man created money, and man will create something better, soon I hope. There has to be a better way of life, more to believe in.
Sean that will only happen when everything is free for whoever needs it and that will not happen unless there is a worldwide revolution (which takes money)
Michael
I am voting for you. We could write you in maybe? When the government seriously considers this then it will be heading in the correct direction. In addition there are so many people b—–ing about the national debt that maybe next year on the 1040 there should be a place to give an extra amount designated only to bring down the national debt. (tax deductible of course) (ha). Lots of people want to complain about the problem but not too many want to be part of the solution.
I hear people talk about this country and how people have the opportunity to make something of themselves and how anyone can make it. There are thousands of stories but the fact is there are people who are so far down they can’t even see bottom. Our welfare system is broken and there are generatins of families stuck in that vicious cycle. Welfare and poverty has become a way of life and they have no hope or belief that they can get out of it. Give a man a fish and he eats for one day; teach him to fish and he eats for a lifetime. We have not done what should have been done to help those in need. During the depression people worked through the PWA and were able to feed their families and in many cases learned a new trade. Our welfare system is far more damaging in terms of racism than any other forms of discrimination seen both north and south of the Mason-Dixon line. It has effectively kept the poor “in their place”.
“Our welfare system is far more damaging in terms of racism than any other forms of discrimination seen both north and south of the Mason-Dixon line. It has effectively kept the poor “in their placeâ€.”
Annette, interesting you should say this, it’s pretty much the Black Republican Party’s argument against the Democrats on their website, did you know that? I’ve read their views extensively, and they say that MLK was a republican for a reason. That his vision included the knowledge that the Democratic party - where so many African Americans have fled - are keeping them in these ruts of poverty by offering them the very handouts that you speak of - welfare - and that it is not their true welfare the Democrats are concerned about, only their votes. I thought that was very thought provoking and interesting.
There is a big difference in a “hand out” and a “hand up”. It’s as you said - giving a man a fish or teaching a man to fish. You’ve hit the nail on the head.
In the words of Sir Winston Churchill: “The inherent vice of Capitalism is the unequal distribution of blessings, the inherent vice of Socialism is the equal distribution of misery.
Don’t hate the player, hate the game. Sacrifice, determination, and persistence. These are some of the key factors to continuously rise above the frail and better yourself each day. If mediocre is what you aspire to be and you are happy, great but don’t expect handouts from those that made took the appropriate steps to be higher achievers. There is a class developing in this country that says “what are you going to do for me and what are you going to give to me”. Those that choose not to work already get free healthcare, free housing, free food, and free schooling courtesy of me, the working class. Even if they have 6 kids! Now Obama says he wants us to pay and give more?!? As a 30 yr old I am angry and scared of the socialist views that are becoming of us.
GOD SAVE AMERICA!
God bless Dave Ramsey. Dave has done more to improve the lives of my family and countless other families than the combined efforts of Senators McCain and Obama.
Michael et al will always have an excuse for their failures that others who eventually overcome would not accept.
I agree that America is moving toward an oligarchy but if the lower classes have any friends in the fight to restore our democracy it is in the ranks of SMB owners like Dave and “Henry”.
The truth be know, the coming election will have far less impact on the future of our country if we all spent more time cleaning up our own messes than we spent blame storming.
Dave Ramsey’s parents were big into real estate, and that is why he got into it young. What lying crap that he did not come from money.
He had all those big fat loans he ended up bankrupting on because his Daddy knew the bankers.