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Earlier today, McCain delivered a pro-Israel speech and once again chided Obama over his apparent willingness to meet with Iranian leaders without preconditions. Some of Obama’s foreign policy statements are becoming the “100 years” quote from McCain which the DNC and other liberal groups have been using against him.
Story from AOL News:
WASHINGTON (AP) - Republican John McCain raised the specter of a nuclear Iran in a speech to a pro-Israel group, once again chastising Democrat Barack Obama for his willingness to meet with leaders of Iran and other U.S. foes.
McCain has criticized Obama for saying in a debate last year that he would meet leaders of Iran and other U.S. foes without preconditions. The Arizona senator argues Obama is naive and inexperienced to think that such a meeting would yield progress.
“It’s hard to see what such a summit with President (Mahmoud) Ahmadinejad would actually gain, except an earful of anti-Semitic rants, and a worldwide audience for a man who denies one Holocaust and talks before frenzied crowds about starting another,” McCain told the American Israel Public Affairs Committee.
He criticized Obama for seeming to suggest that Iran is trying to develop a nuclear program because the U.S. refuses to engage in presidential-level talks. McCain said the Clinton administration in particular tried to engage Iran for two years, even lifting some sanctions, to no avail.
“Even so, we hear talk of a meeting with the Iranian leadership offered up as if it were some sudden inspiration, a bold new idea that somehow nobody has ever thought of before,” McCain said as dozens in the audience laughed.
His campaign said he was referring to Obama’s comments in an interview last month with Fox News: “Iran is stronger now than when George Bush took office. And the fact that we have not talked to them means that they have been developing nuclear weapons, funding Hamas, funding Hezbollah. We have had no impact whatsoever as we pursue our policies.”
Obama’s campaign said Monday that McCain supports an Iraq war that has made the U.S. and Israel less secure.
Video of McCain’s statements from the AP:
Once again, a continuation of the tit-for-tat I spoke about last week. That is, this back and forth over what Obama said versus what McCain said. In truth, I think McCain could go a long way this message with independents and moderate Democrats who may not be as eager to negotiate with Iran.
That being said, Obama will also be targeting the independents by chiding McCain with the Iraq War. However, some recent news is indicating that the Iraq War may be on the right track, at least militarily. If good news starts coming out of Iraq, Obama is going to have a tougher on selling his brand of troop withdrawal in favor of a political solution.
It will be fascinating to watch this develop over the next 5 to 6 months.
(1 votes, average: 5 out of 5)
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“Even so, we hear talk of a meeting with the Iranian leadership offered up as if it were some sudden inspiration, a bold new idea that somehow nobody has ever thought of before,†McCain said as dozens in the audience laughed.”
Is this guy running for President?
War as a policy has also failed everytime. Why does John continue that policy?
Id rather have leaders talk for a 100 years then see the a war for 100 years.
Frank, are you so dumb to see War as a policy has not failed everytime. Look back over history and you will see it hasnt. Second ITS NOT A WAR FOR 100 YEARS! i Hate it when you democrats say that, He never said war for 100 years. He said a presence for 100 years only if Americans soldiers and ambassadors are not dying.
Also as Nate has said there has been a great amount of progress in Iraq recently but for some reason the media will never bring up that, they only bring up the cost of course…liberals…And also read Crocker’s latest report and the head of the CIA latest report showing that things truly are improving and that Iraq is on the verge of being won.
And yes Frank, McCain is running for president, good question.
Frank,
Not everyone can be Switzerland. Someone had to get rid of Hitler. Please explain how sitting down with Hitler for 100 years would prevent him from annexing your country?
Obama_Sucks,
Name one war, where the agressor (the one that attacks) was succesfull.
You say the Iraq war going ok right now. But dont you wish it would never happened?
Stalin,
America did not start world war 2. The one thats starts the war is never succesfull. Thats my point.
Can you guys also tell me in what way this war has benefited America?
Frank,
The colonists started the Revolutionary war and that was successful I would say.
The current wars in Iraq and Afganistan have benefited the United States by fighting and killing terrorists on their own turf and not US soil.
Stalin,
If the revolutionary war the last one, can we conclude that is does not work.
Do you think there are less terrorists then before those two wars? Every american bomb that falls on Iraq en Afghanistan breeds more terrorists then it kills.
The Bush policy has made America less safe. I thought even McCain supporters acknowledged that
Frank,
1. There are less terrorist
2. The amount of terrorist being breed is much lower than ever before, many Iraqi’s and Afghani’s now wish to pick up guns with Americans, or dont want to be seen as a terrorist, because they have realized that those terrorist blow up the normal civilians homes and kill them to, so why would they want to be apart of that.
3. The Bush policy has made America safer, and as a McCain supporter I acknowledge and agree with McCain on his foreign policies.
4. I wish the Iraq War never happened in the sense that I wish terrorist never flew planes into my beloved city in which I live. If 9/11 never happened I would still believe in the killing of the terrorist. someone needs to try to make this world safer, and while you sit there talking trash about America, I do NOT SEE YOUR COUNTRY OF SWITZERLAND FIGHTING AND KILLING TERRORIST TO THE EXTENT THAT THE U.S. has. People need to stop bad mouthing the U.S. and realize if it wasnt for us noone would do good in this world. Britain, France, Germany, Spain, they would never stand up to terrorist and other political figures like the U.S. has. If IT was not for us the world would be a completely different place. While you sit in switzerland bad mouthing the U.S. about wars, and so forth, think about what would happen if we didnt bring the war to them. They would feel the freedom to do what ever they want, and the U.S. has and always will be the greatest country on this planet.
How many of the 9/11 hijackers were Iraqi again? I forget
The War of 1812 was started by the U.S and that turned out pretty well too, but I’m not going to give you a history lesson to prove a point.
It is impossible to answer your question as to whether there are more or less terrorists. You are making a lot of assumptions in order to fit your argument. There were terrorists before 9/11 and before we attacked Iraq, now many of them are dead. That’s good enough for me.
For years, when various terrorist organizations made public plans to murder her civilians, America did nothing. Because plans are not yet enough justification in the eyes of some.
However, when one of those plans became a massively successful reality, the decision was made. America would take the fight to those who plotted her destruction and the slaughter of her citizens.
Certain governments tolerate these evil organizations and others even actively support them. America could not kill those who would come on a mission of murder and destruction, without invading the countries which protected them.
Whether of not this was the best way to neutralize the threat is debatable. But what is clear to me is that this war was not started by America, and shouldn’t be abandoned as though it were a mistake or already lost. That would be the worst blunder possible at this juncture.
For Frank: Read the book The Haj by Leon Uris, this historical novel really helped me gain a bit of perspective and I hope it does the same for you.
I think everyone needs to keep in mind the fact that there was no Iraq War on September 10th, 2001 and yet America was attacked.
How do you explain that aggression if you are blaming current/future terrorism on the Iraq War? What was their problem on 9/10/01 that’s any different from post-9/11?
Just a question for discussion…
bdjnk,
Thank you. That’s the best explanation in the fewest words I’ve ever heard about our reasons and positions concerning the war on terror.
Frank, you would do well to read his post more than once.
Stalin, OS,
Have either of you ever served in the military, and picked up a weapon in the defense of the American way of life? I seriously doubt it by both of your comments, and you obviously haven’t been paying attention to what has been going on over seas post 9/11.
Stalin we are NOT fighting terrorist over there. The terrorist are growing old fat and happy in Afghanistan. Not 1 Iraqi piloted a 9/11 plane. We all know Sadam was an idiot, and a tyrant, but unless his people asked us for help then we had no right to go there.
I was in the Iraq / Kuwait war, and very proud of it because Kuwait asked us for help. We didn’t just jump in a start a war without cause. By all rights we invaded Iraq in the same way Iraq invaded Kuwait, and if we believe we went into Kuwait for the right reasons, then we must also believe that us going into Iraq this time deserves the same treatment. We are violating the same laws that George Bush Sr. Quoted to Sadam before ordering us into battle. I feel like my time in service to my country has been sullied because of this illegal farce of a war.
I have lost 18 (THAT’S 1 MORE THAN 17) friends in this campaign for no damn reason. I would feel better if they died in Afghanistan, or even Saudi Arabia (WERE MOST OF THE DAMN 9/11 TERRORIST CAME FROM). For what? For some idiot to say that things are taking a turn for the better.
Better compared to what? Compared to when we went in and made it the problem it became. It’s easy to say that things are getting better when you are just trying to fix a problem you started yourself.
If after 9/11 Bush said we are going to go into Saudi Arabia I not only would have cheered; I would have signed back up to active duty and bought my own ticket to the front line.
OS,
1. There are more terrorist not less. Just because you can’t find terrorist in the place they weren’t in the first place doesn’t mean there are less.
2. Unless the population growth of the middle east has gone down since this morning the terrorist aren’t breeding less, but thanks for the chuckle I needed it.
3. The Bush policy is not only destroying our military, but our economy as well. I WAS A BUSH SR. SUPPORTER, and I dreaded the God forsaken day Clinton was elected into office, but damn I hate saying Bush Jr. is worse. I have many days wished that George Bush Sr. would slap the S@#$ out of him and ask him what the hell he is thinking.
I swear on my life I wish General Powell would have run for the Republican seat back then.
4. I agree with most of your 4th point.
I look forward to the country having to decide between the lesser of 3 evils (McCain, H. Clinton, and Obama). I personally HATE with a passion anything that has to do with longer chances of more friends of mine dying for the wrong reasons. I believe in killing terrorist over there instead of here. Hell I personally believed that when the towers hell, that night we should have gone into Saudi, and Afghanistan with the full force every weapon in our arsenal could brig to bear. What I do not agree with is keeping even a presence in a place that didn’t attack us or anyone else since the last time we spanked them.
As far as Sadam gassing his own people; we can not throw stones seeing as we gave him the gas.
By all rights how to deal with radical leaders should be a topic of discussion, but actually talking to people is not a bad thing. I am all for shedding blood for my country AGAIN, but I think there needs to be a VALID reason to do so.
bdjnk,
I actually agree with you on many levels. I also believe that if a country harbors terrorist (THAT HAVE ATTACKED THE US); We should destroy everything moving until they either give up that terrorist, or we take them out in the efforts.
Terrorism should be retaliated against in a way that no country would ever considering the thought of harboring anyone that attacks the United States.
“Terrorism should be retaliated against in a way that no country would ever considering the thought of harboring anyone that attacks the United States.”
I think this is exactly the point of the war in Iraq, Melvin. With all due respect to you, I think you’ve made the case for the war nicely:
“I also believe that if a country harbors terrorist (THAT HAVE ATTACKED THE US); We should destroy everything moving until they either give up that terrorist, or we take them out in the efforts.”
Do we sort out the terrorists who have not YET attacked us, even though they have vowed to make it their life’s work to kill us? Do we not hunt them down until such time as it is a revenge situation? Do they wear labels on their forehead that say they are currently guilty, or potentially guilty?
I’m sorry for the 18 soldiers you personally knew that have died, but I don’t think you do their memory any service to say that they died for no reason. I just don’t think your military service should give you a license to do that to their memory. I’m sorry.
Let me respond to everyone at a time.
Obama Sucks,
1.2. Lets say (for this discussion only) we define ‘terrorist’ as being someone who wants to attack America. Normally such a person (like bin laden or other radical muslims) would not get much support among moderate muslims. But since the Afghan and Iraq war the USA has driven many moderate muslims to the extreme. Saying you hate Americans isnt an extreem opinion statement anymore in those regions. Its the common consensus. If you think there are less of these ‘terrorists your should read more about the world.
3. Bush’s policys hasnt made America safer in anyway. Besides the fact that anti-american sentiment has grown everywhere, the policys have bankrupted the USA. The government is dependant one loans from China and the dollar is devaluating everyday.
So even if the policy was wise, Bush and McCain simply cant affort to continue this war.
4. You said this:
‘think about what would happen if we didnt bring the war to them. They would feel the freedom to do what ever they want, and the U.S. has and always will be the greatest country on this planet.’
You hit 2 core points of the reason there is such a thing as anti americanism.
- Its beceause America doesnt let them do what they want that they are so pissed of. The USA wants every country to be a democracy, as long as they choose the ones that America approves of. Hamas is democratically elected but america refuses to talk to them. What kind of an attitude is that? You dont want other countrys telling you what to do just as they dont want america meddling in their affairs.
- If you are the greatest country on the planet, then why are ther 40 million people waking up in extreme poverty everyday? Im not talking about people who struggle but people who cant eat or dont have home. http://en.wikipedia.org/w.....ted_States
Im not trying to be anti-american. Every country has its problems and this one cant be solved in 4 or 8 years. But spending billions on the war against terror when your own people are starving is inhumane. At least try to to something about it. Why is John Edwards the only one adressing this issue?
Just as Bill Maher said (i know you think hes a moron) :
‘America should stop saying they are the greatest country on earth and start ACTING like it’
IMHO America is a great country and so are the people. But it is run by right wing religious conservatives who dont solve any problems, and when someone critizes them, the people are called unpatriotic, liberal, communist, farleft loons.
Again, I think america has the capacity to be the greatest country in the world. The people are good and gifted. I would just like to see someone like Obama, Edwards, Biden or Hagel in the white house.
Ill respond to Nate and bdjnk later.
Babs,
None (0, zip, zilch, nada) of the 9/11 terrorist came from, or fled to Iraq. Therefore that war is wrong.
Melvin,
Don’t pretend to know me. I have not served in the military but that does not preclude me from commenting on this subject. I commend you for your service and that’s all I’m going to say about that.
However, you contradict yourself. You say that we are not fighting any terrorists yet you say that there are more terrorists. Don’t you think some of those terrorists have come to Iraq to join the fight. I doubt they are getting old and fat in Afganistan as you say.
I do agree with you on Saudi though.
If we start punishing people for thinking about doing something wrong then we are no better than them.
I don’t spank my child because I see him eying a cookie and thinking about taking it, because he hasn’t taken it. If he crosses that line is when I have to punish him. I have to give him the chance to see the error in his thinking before hand.
If we are thinking about things like Iran and nukes. We can not say a word to Iran until we do something about North Korea who has already test fired an unarmed rocket to make sure they could reach us.
Melvin,
You do realize we didn’t go into Iraq because of 9/11? We had intelligence from the CIA, Germany, Russia, UK, and Israel saying that Iraq had WMD’s.
Melvin,
That logic is very dangerous. That’s like saying to Iran, we will leave you alone as long as you don’t push that little red nuke button. I am not willing to take the chance that they won’t push it. I prefer proactive, not reactive security.
Melvin, every terrorist in the attacks on 9/11 died with their victims, of course they didn’t flee anywhere. It’s the terrorist organizations that we are hunting down, where ever they hide or flee or breath. Are you sure there are none of THOSE in Iraq? Are you sure Bin Laden himself isn’t laying up in Iraq getting fat? And if you are, where did you get your information and please, share it with our military.
Obama-Sucks
Check on this video and tell me who is talking in the video and what does he say.Look there is one man sitting down with beards,whose mouth is wide open because of what the speaker is saying.
” http://www.youtube.com/wa.....FknKVjuyNk”
I have always told you,you are too dumb.Remember that Iraq is not a US oversea colony that troops will be stationed there for a hundred years.We kicked the ass of the French from the Ivory coast.
I will have to beg you to look for some History books and read about the US.First what were the cause of the American Revolution.Where the British thought it was a right or a property to keep because of their strength.Fake.
The whole world now knows America as a “force of evil” in the world.There are many reasons but the war in Iraq opened the eyes of the world and recruited many American enemies more than ever has been since the first and 2nd world wars.Because it was uncalled for and John McCain has said it was basically for Oil and not because of what you have been blinded to understand about 9/11.Americans are not safer than ever.Most live with fear when traveling that they could be killed no matter where in the world.
I hope you do not forget that Al-quaida has a base in the US.If they did not it will be somewhat impossible to attack the US on 9/11.
All this is due to what Americans refuse to acknowledge that it was the cause of its own doom.Rev.Wright maybe racist or unpatriotic to some extent but he knows what at stake with the US.When you keep hitting children because you are strong know that they may come together at you one day and thats what America is facing.
I have much to tell you but I don’t have to waste much time with you.I refere you to this book on ebay.
“Une Arme de persuation massive” translated “A weapon of Massive Persuation”Its in French I do not know if there is and English version.Check it out and learn how the Iraq war was manipulated and how people like you who have brains were manipulated.
Stalin,
You are right about people from those areas going into Iraq to join the fight, but unfortunately that no longer makes them terrorist, that makes them Iraqi resistance allies. They came across to help Iraq when we were liberating Kuwait as well.
By definition they are not terrorist
TERRORIST - An agent of a sub-national group who uses premeditated, politically motivated violence against non-combatant targets.
That would be like calling us terrorist for going to help Kuwait. We went for political reasons, as well as humanitarian.
Babs,
Not everyone died. The ones that helped them plan, and funded them are also deserving of their fate.
Melvin, first and foremost, thank you serving our great nation, you’re a great American.
As for our soldiers currently serving in Iraq and Afghanistan, as a civilian here in America, the only thing I can do, and anyone else for that matter, is to support our soldiers. That’s whether we believe or not in this current war. It’s our duty to support them and ensure they have what they need to fight this war to victory. We need to support them so they know the American people are behind them 100% for their own morale.
As an American who has lost a loved one to this current war, it’s not my place to say if he did in vain for a war that was unjust. He enlisted after 9/11 to defend his country with full intentions of serving in Afghanistan which is where he wanted to be placed, and eventually where he lost his life fighting terrorism. I guess they were the terrorists not getting “old and fat” since they were shooting back.
He was a great American and he left a hell of a legacy behind for his infant son.
It’s not our responsibility as Americans to disagree or agree with the war as much as it’s our responsibility to fully support our military.
As a side note, I’d like to remind everybody that each one of these candidates voted FOR the current war in Iraq. Yes, even Barack Obama who initially voted “No” on the invasion and then “Yes” 59 other times on war spending and continuing the war.
Bin Laden can’t get fat he is on dialysis LOL. let’s not mince words here Al-Qaeda is gaining ground in Afghanistan, and last time I checked we had not cuaght, or killed Bin Laden. As a mater of fact we helped his family leave the country after the 9/11 attack.
If there ever was anyone on this planet we should have been water boarding for information it is his family. I would even volunteer to pour the water.
But Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Not 1 Iraqi flew a plane into an American building.
Frank, this sounds like it was copy/pasted from a liberal blog as it’s the most typical anti-American stereotypes and talking points:
Please, you are trying to judge American poverty from a WikiPedia article, not exactly a bastion of truthfulness and accuracy. What’s funny is that you think solutions lie with government and politicians. Will people make better financial and life decisions if Obama or McCain is president? I doubt it. People who make bad decisions now will make bad decisions then, politicians don’t solve people’s problems.
Plus, I’ll post this charitable giving chart again just for effect:
Source (PDF File) - 2005 Data
America is the most generous, most giving, most helpful nation on the face of the earth.
Melvin,
I don’t care where you are from, but if you send girls with downs syndrome in as suicide bombers you are a terrorist. There are hundreds of examples of your so-called resistance allies committing unspeakabe acts to THEIR OWN PEOPLE! These are terrorist in my book. You just made my case. They are attacking non-combantant targets. THEY ARE TERRORISTS!
http://www.foxnews.com/st.....45,00.html
Conservative Gal,
I am very sorry for your loss. I feel for anyone that has ever had to go to one of those funerals.
He was truly a hero to sign up after to go fight for this country.
I do understand they are not just getting fat, because they are shooting back, but I do think he was where our men needed to be.
You are right that it is the responsibility of every American to support our military completely.
Though it is also our responsibility to make sure that the people that represent us only send our men, and women into battle when it is just, and true.
We should not allow our leaders to violate the laws just because they are in a certain position.
“Not everyone died. The ones that helped them plan, and funded them are also deserving of their fate.”
You’re making my case for me here, Melvin. Thank you.
Stalin,
Their tactics are deplorable, but no matter what they are doing we should not be there. I have read the articles. I have seen the bodies 3 of my friends I speak of were killed by a suicide bomber in the “GREEN ZONE”.
The only reason I even mention that it would have at least made more sense if they died in Afghanistan is the fat one of those 18 men I speak of sent a letter saying just that before he died.
If John McCain would honestly say that he will take our troops out of Iraq and send every man, and woman in the military to fight in Afghanistan, or Saudi Arabia. I will do everything I can to campaign for him, and rejoin to go myself, but as long as we have people dying in Iraq. I feel all of it is useless.
The bad part is now this all makes me more angry at Bill Clinton for not letting us kill Sadam when we were there the first time. I don’t want him near the white house again, not as 1st husband, not even to visit the gift shop.
Babs,
I am making your case for a war. I agree we should be at war, but we should not be in Iraq.
Melvin, I believe the proper term for Bill Clinton would be “First Gentleman.” I’m not making it up..
I know I am not normally this vocal, and have never posted this much in a week before, and definitely not this much in one day on any subject, but try spending a couple of months trying to sleep on top of 127 degree sand and you will instantly understand why.
I literally talk to friends that are in Iraq every couple of days. I sent them all Magic Jacks so when they do get some liberty time they can call back to the states for free.
I do have a couple of friends that are proud to be anywhere serving their country. I will never say every soldier hates it there. I loved being there myself but I felt our purpose.
Try reading some of the unedited letter, or if you get a chance write to a soldier there, and let him talk to you without being hand picked by the military because of his views.
I am sure I am beating this horse to death today. I just love my country and I love the people that fight for it. They are all my brothers and sisters, and I just want it to be for the right reasons if I have to ask them to be in harms way.
LOL Nate he can be called whatever he wants as long as he stays far away from the white house.
Melvin you say,
I have seen the bodies 3 of my friends I speak of were killed by a suicide bomber in the “GREEN ZONEâ€.
This killing of suicide bombers proves my point about how now Iraqi’s and other muslim’s dont and are not becoming breeds of terrorist like you said. I am truly sorry that this happened but it shows that now the civilians and the common people there see destruction from the radicals, and them to want no part of it, and that is why they take up arms against them.
Frank,
You are way to far to the left to have a debate with. good job getting your information from Wikipedia.
Also you say there is anti-americanism out there. OF COURSE THERE IS! Terrorist and radical groups especially hate us for what we have and posess, so they try to thwart that and take it away. There is anit-sentiments over all bases. I mean just look at our current election, so many people now say if your not for obama your anti-african american. The truth is throughtout time there is always going to be Anti american sentiments and well if it increased because of our war, so be it. We are trying to do something for the greater good of this world, something noone else will ever do.
Lastly I never said Iraq was linked to 9/11. We went into Iraq because of false evidence from mainly Israel(who usually is never wrong) and other nations. We also went into Iraq because at the time once we basically defeated Al Qaeda in afghanistan, most of the remaining terrorist and radical groups moved to the closest safe havon. Iraq. If this is truly a war on terror than that meant we needed to follow the terrorist, Just like our great commander in chief said, “We Will Not Faulter” well we have not and will not faulter in our war on terror and that is why we sometimes need a religious conservative nut or however you put it, as our president.
Lastly the whole 40 million number is completely bloated and outrageous. Come up with real facts before you speak out of your ass again, ok.
We always have to support our soldiers for risking their lives to do their jobs for our sakes. But there have to be limits to that moral support - as citizenry we can’t be asked to support any given military action our government takes simply because our friends and relatives need our support to do their job.
In World war two, when it became clear to the Japanese that America would retake the Philippines, the Japanese gave the order to slaughter every Filipino - man, woman, and child - that they could find until the Americans drove them out. That was messed up, and if - through some unimaginable situation - America had given some similar order, would we as citizenry be asked to support it?
America does not and has not given orders like that, but my point is that blind support regardless of the cause is simply a bad concept. When I meet a soldier I’ll thank him for his (or her) service and buy him a beer. But I won’t thank him for the orders he was given, I’ll thank him for bravely serving our country.
Melvin, In the next couple of weeks we will be rolling a new section on this site that will be for the troops specifically! I would love for you and your guys to be a part of it and contribute your point of view. Our Soldiers should have a voice and a place they can speak it. I absolutely believe that every American should do their part and write letters or send goodies to our soldiers, or even just view pictures and stories from our men and women who are serving in the “sand box”. We need people like you that have these contacts, so take a minute and please consider.
Wow, such heated discussion here! I’ve been away for a while in posting, but I feel the need to say something that has not been said here before.
The history of Iraqi culture is as follows: there has never really been any solid form of government except for under the rule of Saddam Hussein. If he had not been a ruthless dictator, he might have actually been remembered for the strength and structure he brought to Iraq.
80 years ago, during the end of World War II, Britain invaded Iraq. The why isn’t completely certain, but a part of it had to do with the gains Britain could achieve from Iraq’s wealth of oil.
The Iraqi culture at the time was more of a collective of villages rather than a society with government. There were n elected leaders, but each village had elders that were revered as such. It may not be something we can relate to, but it worked for them.
Britain invaded and tried to bring their system of government to the Iraqis, but it didn’t stick. In fact, the mere presence of foreigners in their country didn’t set well with the culture. They simply wanted to be left alone. During the British occupation the Iraqis resisted with violence, costing the lives of Iraqi civilians and British soldiers alike.
The British gradually began exiting troops from Iraq, and Iraq reverted back to its old ways of separate sects living in the same territory.
MY POINT IS:
Iraq isn’t the perfect country and we may not always understand how things work there, but one thing is certain: they cannot strangers living in their home and telling them how to conduct their society.
THIS IS WHY the “100 years of peaceful occupation†is flawed. Occupation will never be peaceful in Iraq, not unless we nuke the Middle East and cripple them so badly they have no choice but to accept our way. They do not want us there, thus we should focus our attention elsewhere.
Nate you said:
“Frank, this sounds like it was copy/pasted from a liberal blog as it’s the most typical anti-American stereotypes and talking points”
What kind of a response is this? When Conservative gal or Obama_Sucks post, you dont respond with ‘this sounds like it was copy/pasted from a conservative blog as its the most typical conservative small minded talking points.
And why is wikipedia bad in the first place? Any foreign source wont be good just as all the liberal american media. So if its not form fox news its basicly wont get accepted as a good source im i right?
Name points made in the article on wikipedia that arent correct in stead of blaming wikipedia.
The funny thing is that you didnt respond to my points in anyway. You simply said that it where just simple liberal talking points. Does that make them not valid?
This is a great site and your doing a great job Nate but this time you werent fair in your judgment.
Obama_sucks,
You keep getting more funnier.
First you say this:
‘You are way to far to the left to have a debate with’
What kind of a discussion killer is this? Its okay to be a far right conservative pro war person but when someone is liberal (being anti war isnt left its normal) his points suddenly arent important.
I dont want to be disrespectfull but you say two things that show that youre the one impossible to debate.
1. “Terrorist and radical groups especially hate us for what we have and posess, so they try to thwart that and take it away”
Even John McCain understands that they dont hate the USA beceause they’re rich and wealthy. Please Obama_Sucks, watch less Fox News.
2.
” Lastly the whole 40 million number is completely bloated and outrageous. Come up with real facts before you speak out of your ass again, ok”
Debating about the role of govermnent in this issue (as nate pointed out) is legitimate. The fact that you deny this fact shows in which world you live.
Again, i get my information form many sources but since you always call the media ‘liberal’, which means everything they say isnt true, i thought maybe you’d accept wikipedia.
http://www.google.nl/sear.....&meta=
Just pick one.
Nate,
About your ‘america gives much’ statistic. Im not saying America is an evil country. I love your country and many people do. But every country has its problems and it should be okay to talk about it. So when Obama_Sucks says America is the greatest nation on earth and denies that there is poverty then im allowed to bring up some facts that contradict his statements.
Do you agree with me?
bdjnk,
“However, when one of those plans became a massively successful reality, the decision was made. America would take the fight to those who plotted her destruction and the slaughter of her citizens.”
As if George Bush attacked Iraq beceause he felt sorry for the people who had to live under Saddam Husseins dictatorship. Saoudi Arabia, Egypt and Pakistan are also run by dictators. The difference is they cooporate with George W.
As Ron Paul said: “i dont disagree with the notion of bringing peace and prosperity but we shouldnt do it in a violent way.”
“Certain governments tolerate these evil organizations and others even actively support them. America could not kill those who would come on a mission of murder and destruction, without invading the countries which protected them”
Can you please name these evil organisations? Can you also tell me what the goals of each of those organisations are. In other words, the reason why they are evil.
” But what is clear to me is that this war was not started by America, and shouldn’t be abandoned as though it were a mistake or already lost. That would be the worst blunder possible at this juncture.”
First, America did start the war with Iraq. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. So you wrong.
Second, Why is it so hard for you to admit it was a mistake? Where did those 4000 great young american man die for?
Third, what will the consequences be of a withdrawall?
” For Frank: Read the book The Haj by Leon Uris, this historical novel really helped me gain a bit of perspective and I hope it does the same for you.”
So you read a fictional book from a jewish writer about arab culture?
Its okay to read and its Leon Uris is a good writer but i hope youre opinion is based on more sources.
Michelle, I enjoyed your post, really. It brought to mind a question though. Do you think that Hussein’s terrorism of Iraq could have changed the citizens attitude towards a foreign country coming in? I’m thinking since the British occupation, and the terror of Hussein, they may be a lot more receptive to our help.
Conservative Gal,
I would love to help in anyway I can. Just let me know when.
Please don’t quote Ron Paul at me, I detest that silly little man.
If you would like to speak about Iraqi terrorism, lets talk about Ansar al-Islam, founded very shortly after September 11th 2001. Whether or not the possible links to al-Qaeda and Saddam Hussein are factual, what seems clear is that these murderers were emboldened and motivated by the slaughter which they perceived as a victory over America.
The terrorist organizations that are pure evil in my eyes, are those with the acknowledged method and bloody track record of murdering non-involved civilians, including women and children, to achieve their goals.
Hindsight is all well and good, but even as things stand right now, there is no way to be certain of the results of not invading Iraq. As far as I have seen and heard, the invasion was not a mistake. There is nothing to admit.
Leon Uris is Jewish in name, but not in upbringing or world-view. That aside, the reason I mentioned The Haj is that it gives a wonderfully clear picture of Arab ideas and ideals.
Regarding my opinion that this book is accurate and insightful. It is taken from my experience living in an Arab country for three years.
bdjnk,
You seem to be implying that we ought to have invaded Iraq, because who knows what would have happened if we didn’t?
What a detestable reason for war, especially one started as a hunt for missing WMDs. I’d bet every cent I own you haven’t lost a single loved one in this war, have you bjknk? You couldn’t shrug your shoulders with a “nothing gained, nothing lost” attitude if you had.
If your family had been one of the families that had to die, would you really still feel so strongly that the war was necessary simply because you don’t know how the other options might have panned out?
I do believe that war is sometimes necessary, but don’t try to justify it with ambiguity. That’s just sick. This is war we’re talking about, not jump rope.
Babs,
Thanks for your response to my post! To answer your question, I’d have to say no based on the fact that in 2003, during the “shock and awe†stage of the Iraqi War, we had laid into them pretty heavily with waves of bombs. This killed hundreds of thousands of people, destroyed their landscape, and left traces of uranium that not only negatively effect Iraqi civilians, but our own soldiers as well.
As you may remember, three days after “shock and aweâ€, President Bush declared “MISSION ACCOMPLISHEDâ€, and we sent in our troops for occupation. But violence started to break out, and the instances have grown more and more over time.
To be honest, I can safely say that the only reason we are not exiting Iraq is because we are fearful that the country will be overtaken by an oppressive, outside force. As a country with no solid structure it leaves itself very vulnerable to that. Thus, America is better off by staying their and stopping it from happening, right?
(See, liberal Obama supporter gets it ïŠ)
But based on the fact that every Iraqi civilian has a relative/neighbor/friend who has been killed due to the American bombs/occupation, I believe our occupation will never be peaceful.
Our best bet is to gradually withdraw troops, leaving Iraqis to start reestablishing their culture without foreign influences, but at the same time our troops are not completely gone so if extremist violence breaks out we can be there.
BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, we need to guarantee Iraqi security from negative foreign forces. The best way to do this is to either
a) control the border with troops, which could cost us time, lives, and money, or
b) create a treaty with Iraq’s surrounding countries: Syria, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Iran, that protects Iran and forbids any further Iraqi invasion unless necessary to quell an oppressive force from within (like Hussein).
That second part will require a willingness to negotiate with Iran, and Barack Obama has shown that he is willing to do this. This proves to me that he has the mindset to solve the Iraq situation without resulting in war with the surrounding countries.
Typo above, meant “protect Iraq” not Iran. Sorry!
(God, my posts are long lately!)
IndiMinded
I’m not really sure how you inferred from what I said that I am shrugging my shoulders over tragedy. The death of a single person is like the death of an entire world.
What should have been clear from what I said, was that there is no way of knowing where an alternate route would have led. We live in the current reality.
The mistake would be to end this war as if we are admitting defeat. What means one thing in the eyes of a westerner is something entirely different by middle eastern standards. Study your Arab history and you will see what I mean.
My brother is in the army and will be shipping out shortly. If G-d forbid he should die, the reality of this war will not have changed. Nor would the reality of the terrorist threat be any different if one of my relatives had died during 9/11, or in any other attack.
Michelle, I think we’re in agreement on 99% of this issue. The only place I see where we separate is on the willingness to negotiate with Iran. I just have a really hard time accepting that we will negotiate with a country whose President said this yesterday:
“I must announce that the Zionist regime (Israel), with a 60-year record of genocide, plunder, invasion and betrayal is about to die and will soon be erased from the geographical scene,” Ahmadinejad said.
“Today, the time for the fall of the satanic power of the United States has come and the countdown to the annihilation of the emperor of power and wealth has started,” the hard-line president said.
This is not someone to be “talked to”, this is someone who needs to be “erased from the geographical scene”. To negotiate with this type of heathen is to negotiate with the devil himself, giving him an audience for his venom. Option A on your list is my choice, which swings back to McCain’s strategy.
See, the McCainocrat gets it too
Babs,
I will rewrite your post from an iranian point of view.
(im not trying to justify any of those crazy statements)
“Israel is not someone to be “talked toâ€, this is someone who needs to be “erased from the geographical sceneâ€. To negotiate with this type of heathen is to negotiate with the devil himself, giving him an audience for his venom.”
How can you say that you would not talk to Iran beceause it wont work. Will war work? Are you willing to bomb millions of innocent iranians bceause their leaders are crazy?
Are you willing to sent another 100 000 innocent americans into a pointless war?
Try to understand irans position first by talking to them. In the end they have no interest in attacking Israel.
bdjnk,
About Ron Paul’s statement, look at the message not the messenger.
“The terrorist organizations that are pure evil in my eyes, are those with the acknowledged method and bloody track record of murdering non-involved civilians, including women and children, to achieve their goals”
I hope you people wont get mad at me for saying this but Bush also kills non-involved civilians, including women and children, to achieve his goals.
Its all allowed under the ‘keep the us safe’ banner.
Im a wrong here?
And can you name these organisations?
“As far as I have seen and heard, the invasion was not a mistake. There is nothing to admit.”
Youre saying the war isnt a mistake.
Here are the bad things about the war:
- Innocent Iraqis died
- Innocent Americans died
- billions of your taxes wasted
- an unsafer world
- an overstreched military, which doesnt make the US safer
Now you name the good things of this war that make the facts above ACCEPTABLE.
You said you lived in an arab country for three years. Thats nice. Where did you live and what where your expierences like?
Sorry, Frank, I have no interest in trying to “understand” a man that says “Today, the time for the fall of the satanic power of the United States has come and the countdown to the annihilation of the emperor of power and wealth has started,â€
You’re fighting a losing battle to even attempt a discussion with me on the subject. I get his message, and wish him a slow, painful death.
Israel alone has the military power the whipe Iran of the map in one day.
All Ahmedinajad threats are empty rehtoric statements that win uneducated votes (does this sound Familiar)
The guy is a lunatic but beceause he is willing to kill innocent lives doesnt mean that we should be willing to.
It simply makes us no better.
Babs, the point of dialogue with Ahmidinijad has nothing to do with the man himself. This guy is a nutbag and there is nothing that will change that. The true point of dialogue with him is to show to the Iranian people themselves that we are not their aggressors. Open dialogue could take away alot of the belief the Iranian people have in Ahmidinijad, because, as in any culture, the majority of Iranians are not likely extremists. If you take away his ability to paint the U.S. and Israel (as our ally) as the cause of Irans troubles, then you take away his ability to forward his own extremist agenda. The people will not allow a government they do not trust to stand forever. Just look at the Cold War. It took open dialogue with the Soviet leaders to eventually bring the “war” to an end, did it not. It was not that the talks changed the minds of the Soviet leaders, it was that it showed a less hostile image to the Soviet people, and you will recall the event that followed these talks, leading up to the fall of the Soviet Union. What is it that changed in the minds of the Soviet people that allowed them to bring revolution to a facist state?
bdjnk,
I guess the point you were trying to make is not the one I thought you were going for. If we’re talking about whether we should have begun this war, and what the justifications were, that is one question. I think the premise for the war is one that many people feel touchy about, myself included, given how things have turned out.
But there is no going back, or undoing the damage we’ve done. So whether we ought to surrender and call it a day is a very different question, and it sounds like that was more what you were attempting to get at.
My apologies for questioning whether you have a personal stake in this matter, may god be with your brother in his travels.
Josh, it may have nothing to do with the man himself in the grand scheme of things, and I’m not so narrow minded that I don’t get that, but what you are suggesting concerning Iranians is that if we talk to this nutcase then they will have a better opinion of us. And I think we have a fundamental difference there. I think talks with this nutcase would give credibility to him in the eyes of the Iranians and the rest of the world. Maybe it’s a generational difference between us, or maybe I’m just a simple minded old girl that don’t believe in wallowing in the mud with pigs. You’ll get up muddy every time. In my simple minded world, if the Iranians want to talk to us, they should fry this pig’s bacon up first and invite us over for breakfast. Then we’d have something to talk about.
But then I’m not running for President, so I’m entitled to politically incorrect about it. *LOL*
There is no point in talking to Iran. If we ever went in to battle Frank with another 100,000 soldiers like you said, they would be wiped off the map. Our military has been improving overtime especially because our men and women finally had a taste of guerillia warfare, and desert warfare, and now have strong grasp on that through the Iraq and afghanistan war. Second i am not big on talking to a ruler without preconditions, so I do not feel someone like Obama has a good stance on that.
And Frank,
Don’t get all defensive, Im sorry your as farleft as you are, but why do you seem to always question America for everything we do, and why do you always seem to hate and despise everything? What are some of the good things your country of Switzerland is doing for this world?
Obama_Sucks,
Did you read what i posted? Why dont you engage my arguments with arguments?
In reference to the WMD’s as been the reasoning of the Iraq invasion, such weapons were never found. Lies sold to you by the Bush administration.
Also, as mentioned, any form of occupation in Iraq will not be a peaceful one.
I was looking up the oil reserves on the web and found it interesting to find that the estimated timeframe of oil reserves lasting is 101 years.
Babs,
I’m glad we both get it
. I hadn’t heard of those quotes yet, but now that I have I can see where your opinions stem from. However, I must still differ on the negotiations.
I believe we have always touted ourselves as a country that is one to be looked up to: respectable, non barbaric, “city on a hill†type of country. By negotiating first, we are at least trying to solve the issue without violence, rather than bombing and then occupying.
However, I would see the exception in the situation where we are attacked by Iran. Then negotiations are no longer an option.
Negotiations with shady characters are not a new thing. The first Gulf War, the Cold War, these are prime examples of when the U.S.A. held negotiations with satisfactory results.
To be clear, I do not think war is inevitable during this time period. Al Queada is strong in Afghanistan, and that is where our primary focus should be. Yes, we still may occupy Iraq. However, we should began a gradual withdraw and start making allies in the Middle East to not only secure Iraq, but to quell the growing force in Afghanistan.
Well I have and everytime I have answered,(this is not an agrument, but a debate, things dont always need to be an argument) I get remarks back that are mostly anti-american and also against all things that I personally believe.
So instead why dont you read what I post and finally answer some of my question Frank, thank you.
Obama_Sucks, Ill answer your questions and then you have to answer mine, okay?
Your questions to me where:
1. but why do you seem to always question America for everything we do
2. why do you always seem to hate and despise everything?
3. What are some of the good things your country of Switzerland is doing for this world?
1. Beceause you do many things normally done by evil nations. Like torture and keeping people in prisons without a fair trial. That is not the America i used to know.
2. As i mentioned earlier, i love america. I love the way u do things BIG, u have an great environment, great entertainment (south park, family guy, forrest gump etc. etc.), your friendly and most importantly, you safed us in world war 2. We in the netherlands are forever thankfull for that.
So i dont hate and despise America and its people. I despise the neoconservatives who have taken it hostage.
3. First of all, i live in the netherlands. Not in Switserland. There are many good things are country does internationally:
- Working together with other european countrys to develop the poor countrys in eastern europe.
- We help the US in Afghanistan. We also have lost brave man out there.
- We are home to over 150 international organisations.
For exaple:
- the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY)
- the International Court of Justice (ICJ)(which Bush doesnt recognize, beceause otherwise he would be convicted for crimes against humanity),
- the Appeals Chamber of the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda (ICTR)
- the International Criminal Court (ICC).
- We think having a gun in your hand is more dangerous than having a bag of weed in your hand. Thats why guns are forbiden and weed is allowed.
- Gays can marry
- You can vote for more partys then two
- Our political leaders do